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City-Ordered Analysis Says Unsafe to Tunnel Under BHHS

An independent peer review of an MTA study of the safety of the proposed Weside Subway Exenstion disagrees with many of the findings.

An independent study of the proposed commissioned by City Council says that it is unsafe to tunnel under with students present.

Released Friday, the 70-page evaluation was conducted by engineering and scientific consulting firm Exponent at a cost of $75,000. It will be discussed at next week’s council study session on Feb. 7 at 2 p.m.

The report evaluates a safety assessment of the subway route by Parson Brinkerhoff that was conducted on behalf of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority. The Parson study found that routing the Westside Subway Extension under BHHS to Constellation Boulevard in Century City would be safe.

Exponent evaluated relevant geological, geotechnical, petrochemical and structural engineering hazards associated with the proposed subway construction, and found fault with the Parson study. It concluded that the Parson study employed a “simplistic” methodology of studies and that post-construction operational safety issues were never considered when stating that tunneling under BHHS would be safe.

An executive summary of the report can be found by clicking here, while the entire report can be found on the city website by clicking here.

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Simon February 05, 2012 at 09:42 PM
@Mr. Mirisch, "It's about a lot more than that, including respect for education and allowing school districts to do their jobs, respect for local control, good government, process -- and, yes, the subway itself." What the heck does that mean? I guess schools in other major cities can have tunnels underneath them, but simply not Beverly Hills. And honestly, accusing Metro of subterfuge when it comes to releasing information is a tad disingenuous when you lost an FOIA suit.
LAofAnaheim February 06, 2012 at 06:49 PM
@Simon Notice how Mr. Mirisch did not answer the question about losing the lawsuit to Metro about information availability? If it's not legally required to disclose, why should Metro give that information to Metro when it's not complete? That was the issue. Metro was not withholding information..it hadn't completed the studies at the time.
John Mirisch February 07, 2012 at 02:21 PM
What does my comment mean? Well, it means "the end doesn't always justify the means." It means that process and how decisions are made is important. I think the content of those comments is pretty clear. The suit that the school district lost simply says, as LA of Disneyland points out above, that Metro was within their legal rights to wait to share information with the District. Clearly, the District is also within its legal rights to wait to share trenching information with Metro, or any other organization. That was the sole point of the suit, nothing else. In that instance, I was not accusing Metro of "subterfuge," but of lack of communication. It's one of their own Board members who described these proceedings as "irresponsible," "unethical" and "flawed." In countless articles, I have pointed out the lack of respect for local control throughout the entire process, as well as the lack of consistency of criteria in decision-making, and publications like the Beverly Hills Courier and the LA Weekly have pointed out the connections between the developers who stand to benefit the most from the station location Metro has been pushing for and some of the politicians on the Metro board (not, of course, the board member who criticized the process). No public schools in California have heavy rail under instructional buildings, but that itself isn't the only point. Good for BH that we're willing to stand up and support our School District.
joninla February 10, 2012 at 02:54 AM
This has been going on for such a long time, I can't even remember when I first realized what was really going on. There are some residents who are afraid for safety reasons. Their fear is very rational and based on the endless "factual certainties" presented as 'fact' from the Propaganda Spewing City Leaders. Here's the deal: The BHUSD woman (Ms. Brukner is not stable) and is just extra free propaganda for the City Leaders motives. The final attempt to not allow any part of the subway pass under BH was lost years ago due to the city not having land use rights at the depth at which the subway travels (there is a right of way). The city then changed 180, and kept increasing its demands for more subway stops in the city. That settled, the MTA study very correctly realized the Constellation stop was not just better, but the only logical/possible location. With the Constallation site, it turned out the Cut & Cover method being used for the line (they dig the entire street up, place a temporary car plate sturdy temporary surface while creating a tube inside a giant rectangular open pit. once the tubes are complete, they remove the temporary road surface, fill the space left empty around the new tubs, and re-asphalt over the top to appear as it did) So in BH, the line will be using TBM - Tunnel boring machines (better, faster but 4times the cost per mile).
joninla February 10, 2012 at 03:06 AM
Part2: So MTA will spend a huge sum from their budget to make the mile or less twin tunnels under BH High School using the same (but even better) technology that created the Chunnel from England to France. There will be absolutely no awareness on the surface while the building sized machines bore a tunnel at (something like) 3/8th of an inch per hour. Turns out MTA's budget for the project includes a substantial fund to compensate everyone affected (business, shopping, noise, dirt, public transit, utilities rerouting, street dirt and noise abatement) by the honorific conditions that come with CUT & COVER the entire boulevard for the entire length of the new line. Well it ends up: 1. BH has no right to object to anything MTA does below the City, 2. The MTA chose the best stops for Beverly Hills, which were not what the city wanted ... and now the City is FURIOUS to find out they won't get a dime of compensation from the massive fund for everyone else along the route (very generous) because in B.H. proper, the TBM (tunnel boring machines) will be the only method used and nobody will suffer any business loss. BH would rather make the City, It's Residents, It's Visitors and all the traffic passing through daily to suffer and endure tearing up Santa Monica Blvd (side walk to sided walk and all the way down excavated, so the City will get the big $$ from the compensation fund MTA has. GREED & MONEY is the reason.
Simon February 12, 2012 at 03:17 AM
Mr. Mirisch preaches about good government while spending hundreds of thousands of taxpayer dollars to delay and hamper this project. Thank God we have the Internet now to point out hypocrisy of the powers-that-be. We didn't have it in the 80s the last time Westside interests rose up against the subway.
joninla February 12, 2012 at 05:27 AM
Mr Mirisch - your are one of the perpetrators of the Beverly Hills Obstructionists that I can not tell if you are truly unaware of your absolute conviction to one and only one rational reason to your objection is not rational, relevant, correct and most significantly .... Different from both the preceeding assertion made, or the next one you will make, all with absolute single minded focus (and one back up excuse if no one else has noticed). Or if you are just a paid stooge who thinks everyone one of these issue have been addressed several times, in each round of final conclusion and reported on as being safe. You think the Santa Monica Station would be better for Century City than the Constellation stop and you are involved and BH has it's two stop .... Who the f cares if you think the MTA is making an incorrect decision about the line after it leave the second Beverly HIlls station which meets Beverly Hills needs. It does not affect you, Beverly Hills and the MTA will face the wrath of the resident of Century City ... who are in strong agreement that for Century City, the Constellation stop is infinitely better for Century City and it riders as Beverly Hills does in having its two station where they want them. You don't want the train under BHHS - tough luck - you have no right other than to stand above as the tunnel then the train passes unheard below your feet and protest your b.s. to your hearts content.
joninla February 12, 2012 at 05:39 AM
Mr Mirs - Let me address your one actual concern for your physical safety, BHHS and its student that you belive the subway will cause their tototal demiise. To that I have to laugh - You silly goose, do you know how long it take to build the line? You and BHHS will be destoryed in the Myan 2012 certain Distaster, long before the tunne gets to BH. And if you should survie that one, an asteroid is scheduled to hit right on top of the spot where MTA is planning the Tunnel - so you, BHHS and the tunnel will all be destroyed by the Asteroid. And how can I laugh ..... I can laugh at your imminent demise because we all know there is a fleet of aliens waiting for the disaster to come and are already prepared to come down and rescue your AND BHHS ... but they won't be able to bring the eveil tunnel up with them, so your will have what you alwasy wanted. No tunnel under BHHS and if it should come to be, they will be the sorry ones left behind as the aliens take the brilliant theorists, such as you, and other members of your BH Brain Trust who know they are correct in thier preidctions of catastophic disaster to human life and historic architecture.
John Mirisch February 12, 2012 at 06:40 AM
Twist, turn and obfuscate, Sy. Nobody is trying to hamper the project: we're trying to stop Metro's bait-and-switch. If they place the alignment on Santa Monica Blvd., as was represented to the residents in garnering their support, the issue will become a non-issue. While it's unfortunate to have to spend taxpayer dollars to stop the abuses of process of another government agency, the BH expenditure could save the County taxpayers on the order of $100 million -- not by stopping the project, but by placing it on Santa Monica, which would also, by the way, reduce travel time. You betcha that it's a good thing we have the Internet; please feel free to use it and read the numerous articles I've written on the subject.
John Mirisch February 12, 2012 at 06:49 AM
Well, joninla (or should I say joninweho?), not only do I, but the entire Community of BH has every right to protest and/or comment on what's going to happen in our City with our tax dollars. BH was among the cities with the highest percentage of voters in favor of Measure R and while we have nothing to say about the overdevelopment in LA and WeHo which is the main cause of our streets being choked with traffic (more than 70% of which is pass-through traffic), we will not be bullied by those who are doing the bidding of Century City developers. Ironically, the residents of Century City (or more specifically the Westwood homeowners assn.), want the subway station on Constellation because it will be farther away from them. Isn't that the very definition of NIMBYism? A Santa Monica station will have higher ridership, cost less and reduce travel time. Again, we have no intention of "stopping the subway," but neither do we have any intention of sacrificing the future of our only high school for the sake of Century City developers and their politician cronies. By your own "reasoning," since you live in WeHo, you shouldn't be commenting on any of this at all, since WeHo won't have a single subway station.
John Mirisch February 12, 2012 at 06:56 AM
Please feel free to go back and read my voluminous writings on this subject which go back a year. The safety issue is not -- and has never been -- my main concern, other than to quote Wayne Gretzky, who said "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take." Well, this is a shot we don't want to take, especially considering there is a less intrusive alternative under a public right of way which will cost less, increase ridership and reduce travel time. If you're really concerned about sensible public transport, you should use your talent for sarcasm to question the planned location of the "UCLA/Westwood" station, which is almost a mile away from UCLA. One of the main reasons Metro decided not to locate the station closer to UCLA was to avoid tunneling under a cemetery. That should provide you with ample fodder for a Bunyanesque tale of aliens, Mayans, and maybe even a few poltergeists thrown in for good measure.
joninla February 12, 2012 at 07:40 AM
Really. You cant even remember I have answered that stupid new list of real reasons you have now come up with. LONGER RIDING TIME - yeah that's why it should be at Constellation. A fast moving train on a closed line, will take 30 second at full travel speed to get to the proposed Constellation. Would people prefer walking 20-30 minutes each way, every day to meet the train at santa monica blvd, or sit on a new fast, smooth air conditioned train for 30 seconds more as the train travel the distance in from Santa Monica and then another 30 seconds back out. Boy you are a lazy one, I've done this for you so many time. There is zero dollar cost to the City of Beverly Hills. The MTA has been budgeted and the increase cost of the tunnel comes form their budget. Likewise, the additional expense the 1 mile TMB line will cost, will be off set by the damage to the City and the Environment that the cheaper cut and cover would cause. Plus the air and noise to thousands of people not just living in bh, but driving through. And of course the MTA will make up far more than the additional expense it would incur when the have to compensate for the damage and injuries caused by your 'cheaper' cutting the corner idea of good construction. and in BH of all place. You have a few more short lists of THE REAL REASON you object. Go ahead. As for me, I live in the United States and will enjoy my freedom of speech anywhere I feel like it, even in your private BH
joninla February 12, 2012 at 08:08 AM
You run the short list already. Should I re-state : It's not your tax dollars, and the actual saving of the short 1 mile tunnel boring is greater then the cost. IS IT NOW THE REAL ONLY ISSUE., THE ONE THING YOU HAVE ALWAYS SAID WAS THE REASON FOR ALL THE SUPLEMENTAL ALSO VERY GOOD REASON, A BAIT AND SWITCH OF YOUR VOTE? Well I believe you chose to live in BH for it's lifestyle and that lies beneth all else, keep the city the way it was and has been. Well that decision and basis for making it are more protected with the MTA TBM, but that's not he issue. Your very carefully thought through decision to be in a separate city and not lost in the mess of Los Angeles, at least protects your local voting pool free from the vices of the Century City Money Machine that has been the only reason the MTA chose the Constellation Station. Wait, bait and switch or power wielding .... Whatever. Had you written your successful articles while living in Los Angeles, instead of the tiny BH voters, you may have gained more political moxy to fight the evil overseers and their money (let's not tell anyone about the shoe monopoly being behind the santa monica station - for all the extra shoes that will be sold if people have to walk so far each way every day. nobody could handle that kind of truth). A piece of work you are. Too bad not of higher quality or at least one fresh idea.
joninla February 12, 2012 at 08:15 AM
Simon - can I trust you have more than enough knowledge and hopefully the patients to keep this clown entertained without some new reader looking in and thinking the next stupid reason he brings up has some merit? I just thought I should make it clear again since I thought it had been settled and this guy could go back to his rewriting his articles for the generations to come. good luck Simon.. I'm bored with Mirisch and feel fully satisfied that i have fulfilled enough of my personal civic duty going the bozo's circus of never ending nonsense. good luck and enjoy the fun.
Joe Parker February 12, 2012 at 04:51 PM
Joininla writes, "Would people prefer walking 20-30 minutes each way, every day to meet the train at santa monica blvd, or sit on a new fast, smooth air conditioned train for 30 seconds more as the train travel the distance in from Santa Monica and then another 30 seconds back out." Let's state the facts: the distance from Santa Monica Blvd. to Constellation is approx. 1,000 feet. With a 2.5 foot stride and taking a step every second (a leisurely walk), it takes 1,000/2.5 seconds or about six and a half minutes to walk this distance. AND there are a lot of hi-rise buildings between these two locations where people might be working. Joininla, go walk this distance yourself as I have. Stating misinformation only brings to question everything you write.
Carol Spencer February 12, 2012 at 07:04 PM
We seem to have deviated from the info in the article. I listened to the BH City council study report and then started reading the 80 page report. I am only about 1/3 through the report however I personally think that the Metro report has covered the majority of items on the Risk Assessment list however they use different words with identical meaning to present their findings. I guess the Professor wants only his language used. Also, that MTA has had very little cooperation from BHUSD re; testing on the BHHS school grounds. Also BHUSD did not reveal plans for any underground structures as Metro would work around these plans. In that regard I feel that the paper presented in the study session has some merit - that more testing needs to be done and that BHUSD should work with METRO. The question is WILL BHUSD ALLOW METRO TO PERFORM NECESSARY TESTING?
Joe Parker February 12, 2012 at 10:52 PM
A more appropriate question is SHOULD BHUSD ALLOW METRO TO PERFORM NECESSARY TESTING? What does it gain for BHUSD? My understanding is that BHUSD allowed Metro to test on the campus and then Metro refused to release their data until BHUSD began their own testing. First, Metro should do the testing that's necessary, and shown lacking by the Exponent Report, at the sites of the proposed subway stations (SM Blvd and Constellation). With better science their conclusions could change. THEN, if necessary, let them approach BHUSD for permission to dig up a high school campus that has already been grossly dug up.
joninla February 12, 2012 at 11:15 PM
To Carol & Joe. In all seriousness, I don't know how long you have been following this same issue. My incredibly obnoxious posting were the result of asking and making the same rational and practical question after doing my own basic fact reading .... I can't say what year it was, but I was like you at first and it was a couple of years ago. Since then I patiently went through all the never ending and repeating questioning on at least 3 totally new article, after a period of months, and when the story appeared the next step is ready to be discussed. I only suggest you not worry too much about the MTA or their geological skills. They have been more than over cautious and updating their technology all along the the projects time line. And sense they are holding back is due to their previous attempts to make it clear that the information if correct and it is safe. Any extra test, idea, independent extra expert, then even the language of the sentences was used Ms. Bruckner of BHUSD to come up with another crazy reason to call the tunnel a known danger. The Mayor's office lets her get away with this because their interest is to move the line to Santa Monica Blvd for the only reason being, they will then dig up Santa Monica Blvd and then get the compensation MONEY for "loss of business" and "nuisance" that is part of the budget for the project. They want noise & mess for the large payback for the 'inconvenience' to the people.
John Mirisch February 13, 2012 at 03:22 AM
You mention "cut and cover" here -- and I believe you've mentioned it in several of your previous postings. Where do you get any idea that the subway route anywhere is going to be "cut and cover." This is a technique that was used in some cases for underground auto tunnels. Metro is planning on using the TBM's and to my knowledge no "cut and cover" was planned either along Constellation nor Santa Monica. Again, ridership is ridership, and Metro's own DEIR figures suggested that the ridership at SM would be just as high, if not greater, than at Constellation. So none of what you're saying really makes a lot of sense. Enjoy your freedom of speech, by all means, just like the rest of us. Just be prepared to be called out when your speech doesn't conform to the facts. And while the City of BH won't be paying for any of this, its residents will be. BH is not immune from the sales tax hike that Measure R brought all of us in LA County. In fact, as mentioned, we voted in favor of it at among the highest percentages of any city in the county. So, yes, it's also our money.
John Mirisch February 13, 2012 at 03:31 AM
I happened to grow up in Beverly Hills. I happen to be a fourth-generation resident. Beverly Hills is my home and you darn tootin' I'm going to do whatever I can to protect our Community and ensure that our quality of life continues to be prioritized. The articles I wrote were in the LA Business Journal, Jewish Journal and Huffington Post, in addition to our local papers. I'd love to see LA get its house in order. I'd love for the residents in LA to be empowered to withstand the assaults on their quality of life from the special interests and well-connected. But in the meantime, I think it's incumbent upon us first to tend to our own garden, and that's BH, which itself has not been immune from the specter of looming overdevelopment and all the problems that creates. Maybe we can serve as an example to other communities about what Community with a capital "C" means. You evidently have a somewhat confused view of history. The simple fact of the matter is that Metro had been planning a station on SM for the better part of a decade -- until the political forces aligned to make Constellation the preferred station of some very well-connected developers. The "shoe monopoly," as you call it, will likely be most pleased with the UCLA/Westwood station and the thousands of students and faculty who would have to walk almost a mile to get to UCLA. Again, Jon in WeHo, how about directing your spleen towards that wacky decision?
joninla February 13, 2012 at 04:50 AM
Boy! Put down your articles and do your research. I may be wrong at times, but I am only trying to correct your intentional misinformation. I would judge your for being misinformed, but not only have I pointed out every one of your never ending excuses, all this started out with you stating you were stating a fact, based on one real issue and for the benefit of ... well I guess for the benefit that would enure from whatever the next excuse to the which comes before you answer the previous one (because they are either true, or indisputably obvious you are embarrassed to try to defend your bringing it up. TO BE CLEAR - this latest round started with absolute statement that it was limited to a set of reason (you call them ONE REASON). The ongoing changes and your appearance that this is some sort of game or a debate or contest to win - to you. I don't care what you do or think, but I am not doing this for kicks or jollies. I don't want to go through all this with you yet again. I do care about people being manipulated and misused by statements you keep making. But that is not why I am writing. This is because the years of malicious attempt to change a public transit system has caused people to experience, live with and though experiences of actual fear. To feel fear a terrible thing. To be used and lied to and it causes you fear to ones family and friends, you are doing something very wrong (as a human being) and hurting people. No jokes.
joninla February 13, 2012 at 05:02 AM
To everone involved with the intentional misleading statements: Many of the totally made up and untrue claims are about and some expressly warn of imminent danger and risk of severe injury and death. The uniformed who read these things and belive them, to whatever degree, experience fear, the worst of emotion. When it is based on uncertain facts that out of the control of the people reading a legitmate source, that fear naturally starts to build on itself. A new mother thinking she and her child are now, in thier homes, suddenly living in a danger zone of some sort. Does anyone making these posts ever think about the group of elderly women the Mayor may meet with and say that he needs their support becasuse without it, this tunnel wil be built that could cause catastrophic damage to their homes, children and grandchildre at BHHS. STOP BECAUSE YOU THINK IS WRONG. OTHER WISE STOP BECAUSE IT IS WRONG, PEOPLE BELIVE IT AND ARE NEEDLESSLY LIVING IN SOME DEGREE OF UNECESSARY FEAR. THIS IS NOT A GAME. THIS IS OUR LIVES. The allegation of Century City Money being the control is wrong, but it about banks and money. These lies about daily life of ordainy people is a totally differ thing and it need to be stopped. If for no other reason, than should a problem arise, it will be belived and taken care of appriately, without the made up stories affecting the very serious woring being done.
joninla February 13, 2012 at 06:45 AM
I don't know what you are saying. There is a pending issue about seismic safety being done by experts. You are apparently having an episode of some kind, which neither helps the process of building a safe subway or your own health. The issue has already been so confused by your jumping all over one different idea after another. This is serious and you are clearly in need of medical attention. Please take care and I hope you are well soon.
joninla February 14, 2012 at 05:44 AM
I think you misunderstood me. There are people working throughout Centrury City. Your precise calculations about walking speeds and ideals aside, the time I was referring to was including all the potential riders south of the constellation. So by your 6.5 figure would have to be doubled for the workers south of the place you chose to run your calculations. Likewise, people walk as great variances of speed. There is also the inherent slow down at peak rush hours when there are large number of people all walking at the same time. Further, you may not have noticed, but the large intersection with the designated turning lanes, from a pededstrian's perspective, take a signficant amount of time to cycle through until a green/walk light comes up. Just missing the crossing light will add a very long wait and time traveling to walk to and from the subway. Finally, having endured on summer of seveal days over 100% in a row, temperature and climate play a big factor in walking conditions and endurance. But from basic logic, where you placed your protractor down to measure so precisely with the goal of proving the longest possible walk was so off from my casual reference to walking the streets, you could rearrange all your thoughts, and just look at the center and see all the sides where people will work and then need to walk to the subway. Science is not accurate when done with emotion to prove your point.
HollywoodF1 March 29, 2012 at 04:46 AM
This headline is a farce. I read the report. Nowhere does it declare that passing under the HS is unsafe. The text of the report is only 14-pages, so read it yourself. And it is only a peer-review, not a study. Major credibility and slant issues here, PATCH.
joninla March 29, 2012 at 07:38 AM
Thank you for doing the reading. I still would put zero credibility on a report that comes to a conclusion using science that matches the very first time the idea to stop the subway by claiming seismic instability. The litany of contradictory 'scientific' theories all focused on stopping the tunnel under BHHS are intentionally false, misleading and assuming your correctness on reading this latest report, now a known blatant published lie by elected officials acting in their authorized duties. I believe Public Meetings are held under Oath, which would make the submission of this untrue information a possible Criminal act of Perjury under California Criminal Laws as well as violations of the CA Election Laws and the punitive actions against Elected officials who are in violation of those laws. My extreme analysis is not so extreme in light of the circumstances, to wit: the years the efforts have been made, the amount of time and effort expended, the massive financial repercussions to a multi Billion Dollar major public transit project, and the inappropriate number of city departments involved without the legislative mandate or authority to act on.
Joe Parker March 29, 2012 at 03:41 PM
It is MTA's responsibility to demonstrate that tunneling under the high school is safe. They haven't done it. Ergo, it is unsafe until proven otherwise. The headline is not a farce. Here is what the Exponent Report says "it is Exponent’s opinion that additional effort is needed to accurately identify, quantify, rank and mitigate the potential hazards posed by the proposed Westside Subway Extension Project before one of the two presented alternatives, or a third alternative, are selected for implementation." Maybe you should read it again HollywoodF1.
JT May 04, 2012 at 04:07 PM
In addition to reading the conclusions of the Exponent report, it is informative to read the resumes of its authors, and consider their experience in evaluating faults and underground projects. The Exponent team's experience is primarily in performing numerical evaluations of potential hazards, not in doing the field work to evaluate faults and characterize their recency of activity, and especially not in evaluating the safety of tunneling under structures. Hiring Exponent to provide recomendations regarding faulting/tunneling is a bit like hiring an an anesthesiologist to provide a second opinion regarding heart surgery. In comparison, look at the resumes of the second report that was done for the City. Although its authors are not heavily experienced in fault evaluations, they do have years of experience in evaluating ground conditions - specifically as they apply to tunneling projects. And they provide quite different opinions about the feasibility and safety of tunneling - irrespective of what type of building it may go beneath.
JT May 04, 2012 at 04:58 PM
Follow on... by the 'second report' I refer to the Shannon & Wilson evaluation. As far as faulting is concerned, based on input from a variety of consultants, the City has been aware of the potential for fault rupture for decades. The precise location and receny of rupture along those faults (Newport-Inglewood and Santa Monica) has not been understood because of the limited ability of geologists to drill borings and dig trenches to get the necessary data. In terms of public safety, one good thing to come out of all this mess is that there may eventually be adequate subsurface data so that the State geologist can establish fault rupture hazard zones, within which future construction can be limited or precluded. This impacts property values in a pretty 'high-rent' area, but its the right thing to do. And one might ask how in the world a school ended up being built in close proximity to (or perhaps over) active faults. Unfortunately, this isn't the only such instance...there are other schools, dams, and freeway interchanges that (unfortunately) got build in a undesirable locations. Had geoscience been more advanced in years past, this could have been avoided. Bottom line, Irrespecitive of the exact position of the Santa Monica and Newport-Inglewood faults, we know that these faults pose a relatively high hazard. So let's avoid crossing them, and where a crossing is not avoidable, cross them at the most optimum angle and appropriately engineer the crossing.
Joe Parker May 04, 2012 at 05:49 PM
JT: Your analogy is excellent! If I were a patient and I had learned that my anesthesiologist had provided an opinion on my heart surgery and my surgeon was ignoring those concerns and had not even given a response to allay the concerns of the anesthesiologist, I would look more carefully at the surgeon. If after research I discovered the surgeon had a record of disregarding safety concerns and a number of deaths were due to his/her operations, I would use every means to prevent that surgeon from operating on me. Wouldn't you do the same?

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